Erwin Schwartz Interview, Nov. 21, 1994
Regarding Mr. Schwartz's and his business partner Abraham Zapruder’s early chain of possession of Mr. Zapruder's film
Author’s note (Jan. 12, 2023): In 1985, I married the granddaughter and niece, respectively, of Abraham Zapruder's business partners. Abe's wife, Lillian, was one of our wedding guests. Their daughter, Myrna, and her son Adam, who is a lawyer in Austin, are still family friends. My wife’s uncle, Erwin M. Schwartz, told me his story often at family gatherings. In 1994, four years before he died at age 71, Erwin allowed author Noel Twyman and me to record this interview with him. He had previously been interviewed in 1993 by BBC2, NBC News, and other major media outlets for the 30th anniversary of the JFK assassination. But Mr. Twyman and I knew he had not been asked the proper questions. Everything Erwin said is included here in the order he said it. I edited only for easier reading.
(Notes from audio tape, edited for readability) Copyright © 1994 - 2023 Richard Bartholomew, All Rights Reserved
They did not get to the Jamieson Film Company until after 6 p.m.
Two policemen were standing in the elevator vestibule with shotguns when Erwin got back to the office at approximately 2 p.m. As Lt. Day was removing the rifle from the TSBD, Erwin walked past them on his way to his office. Mr. Z said, “Erwin, they shot him. They blew his head off. I couldn't stop filming.” Erwin said, “What are the cops doing here?” Zapruder said, “I don’t know. I told them to go get somebody in authority. I'm not giving that film to them.”
Just then, Forrest Sorrels, the chief of the Secret Service, and Harry McCormack of the Dallas Morning News arrived. They asked Zapruder what he saw. Zapruder told him, and Sorrels said he'd like a copy of the film. McCormack said he’d bet they can develop it at Channel 8.
Erwin, Mr. Z, McCormack, Sorrels, and the two policemen went downstairs with the camera and got into a police car. They had to use the siren to get people out of the way. Garrison, in his Playboy interview, mentioned two men taken from the ‘Dal-Tex Mart’ building with the sirens blazing. Erwin says that was he and Mr. Z.
They went to Channel 8 about six blocks away. They told Sorrels they couldn’t do it. They would have to go to Kodak. They called Kodak. Kodak said they could do it right away. It was a 15-to-20-minute drive to Kodak. They processed it right away.
Mr. Z and Erwin watched the girl process it through a glass partition. It was on half of a 16 mm. strip of film. Just as they were about to view the film, Sorrels got a call informing him that they had captured LHO. He had to leave. He asked them to stay and look at the film and told the officer to contact him after they see it. They went to the screening room and showed it. It was as clear as Erwin had ever seen a picture. This was about 2:45 p.m. (Erwin said he was guessing when he mentions times.) Erwin is not sure if McCormack was still there. Erwin and Zapruder and one of the policemen saw it. The cop then called Sorrels and said, “Oh yeah, you can see everything.” Sorrels then talked to Zapruder on the phone and asked if he would have a copy made for him.
Erwin and Zapruder discussed the possible historic value of the film and then called their attorney to get advice on how to handle it. He told them to get a release stating they would not make any additional copies—they could make as many as they (Erwin and Zapruder) wanted and no more. This was for the people doing the copying at Jamieson. Erwin and Zapruder had never even heard of that company. At this point, they only had one copy—not yet spit. Half the screen was blank when they projected it.
The police car took them back downtown. They went to the factory (Jennifer). They closed up around 6 p.m. Jennifer was on the 4th and 5th floor. The suite of offices included the corner of Elm and Houston on both floors—they had the entire 4th and 5th floors. Kodak gave them the name of Jamieson Film Company.
They had told Sorrels they would go and get him a copy made. To do that, Jamieson made them a negative, which they had to take back to Kodak for developing. The first time any money was mentioned was when they got out of the car at Jamieson. “A guy came out of the shadows and said, ‘I’d like to offer you $200 [or $250, Erwin doesn't remember the exact amount]—I’m with the Dallas Morning News—for every still we use off your film.’” Zapruder said he wasn't interested, and they walked into the door. Zapruder said, “Can it be that nobody's got any pictures like this?” Erwin said, “No, there must have been a hundred guys down there with cameras.”
Jamieson was reluctant about doing it but finally agreed and signed the release that said they would not make more than what they asked for. They asked for a copy for Mr. Z., a copy for Erwin and a copy for the Secret Service. Three copies total. They watched the Jamieson people process the film. They were given their three copies, and they left. The original was still intact. It had never been split. It was still on 16 mm. film.
He asked if the shift working there could see the pictures. Zapruder said yes, and they showed it two or three times. There were 20 to 30 people who saw it.
They drove out to Kodak. The same fellow was there. This time, only Erwin and Zapruder were there with him. When they finished developing those, he asked if the shift working there could see the pictures. Zapruder said yes, and they showed it two or three times. There were 20 to 30 people who saw it. Erwin and Zapruder ate food from a vending machine while waiting for the developing to finish. By this time, it was close to 9 or 9:30 p.m.
Sorrels then told them to come up to the city jail to see Lee Harvey Oswald. They got there with the copy for Sorrels. Sorrels thanked them and asked for one more favor. He asked them to take it to his office. Then they went to his office and handed it to a man who had a gun on—a young fellow. They then got back in their car with two copies and the original. Erwin was driving. They went to pick up Zapruder’s car and Mr. Z took all of the film home. They felt that lots of other film would eventually surface. They didn’t think they had the only film of the assassination.
Erwin got home around 9:30 or 10 p.m. and started watching TV. His doorbell rang, and it was a girl who had done advertising artwork for Jennifer. She introduced some men from the Saturday Evening Post. They offered Erwin $10,000 to introduce them to Mr. Z. Erwin said if you want to see him, come to the factory tomorrow. They asked to see him tonight. Erwin said not with his help they won’t.
Erwin got to the factory around 8:45. It was a zoo in there—75 to 100 people screaming and shoving to see Zapruder. There were offers of $100,000 for the film. The employees couldn't get any work done. Erwin went into the room where Zapruder was, and Zapruder introduced him to Richard Stolley. Zapruder said he was going to let Life have the film. Life said they would handle the film discreetly. They had an agreement drawn up, which was then signed and witnessed. Stolley then left. The agreement was that Erwin would bring the film up to him the first part of the following week. He did not leave with the film in hand.
Forrest Sorrels and Will Fritz and two or three other police officers came in. They ran the film for them. It didn't take long to show it.
After Stolley left, Erwin ran off the other reporters. He said the deal was over, and they left. Some of the Jennifer employees then asked to see the film. So they set up the projector and screen and showed it four or five times to them, others in the building, and a couple of Erwin's friends who came over. At that time, Forrest Sorrels and Will Fritz and two or three other police officers came in. They ran the film for them. It didn't take long to show it. Sorrels thanked them again.
This was the first time Sorrels had seen it because they had taken the copy that was supposed to go to him to his office the night before. They told Erwin and Zapruder they were going to fly it to Washington that Friday night out of Hensley Field, which was the Naval Air Station. Stolley didn’t get a copy on Saturday.
After showing it to Sorrels and Fritz, NBC came, and a guy asked to take some pictures from their fire escape overlooking Houston Street. Erwin told him to come back at 4 p.m. The man protested, but Erwin refused to let him do it before 4 p.m. He did come back at 4 p.m.
Erwin delivered the film to Richard Stolley on Tuesday—the day after the funeral. He delivered it to the Adolphus Hotel. Mr. Z then started thinking about the widow [Tippit]. He would often go sit on a park bench in a park (Dealey Plaza) off of Main Street. He would go by himself quite often. '“There wasn't anything out of the ordinary as far as I was concerned,” Erwin said. And when he came back from the park on Tuesday, he said he was going to call his attorney, Sam Passman, and find out how he can do this—help the widow. He then went to Passman’s office on Tuesday or Wednesday. Erwin thinks that’s when Dan Rather saw it. Rather was not at any of the viewings Erwin attended at their offices. Erwin was not at the screening at Sam Passman’s office.
Erwin does not know what happened to the negatives they took to Kodak, but he knows that everyone who handled them signed the release saying they would return everything to Mr. Z. Zapruder got everything back. Jamieson made three negatives. Kodak made three copies from the three negatives. Erwin doesn't know what happened to the three negatives. Erwin assumes the Zapruder family has the negatives.
Erwin does not believe Stolley’s claim that Life was looking at the film on Saturday and Sunday.
The one Erwin took to Life was to be used to make stills. Erwin took it to Stolley and handed it to him personally on Tuesday or Wednesday. If Zapruder gave Stolley a copy to take with him, Erwin doesn’t know anything about it. Erwin does not believe Stolley’s claim that Life was looking at the film on Saturday and Sunday.
The idea for Life to purchase all the rights came after Zapruder gave the money to the Policemen’s Firemen’s Fund. Zapruder decided to do that on Tuesday or Wednesday when he was sitting in the park on the bench by himself. They then had to get in touch with a tax guy to figure out how best to donate the money. Erwin understands that Zapruder gave all of the initial Life payment to that fund. Erwin doesn’t believe Stolley saw the film Saturday afternoon, because Stolley left their office at about 10 a.m. to 10:30 a.m. So it would have been impossible for Stolley to see it. Erwin thinks Stolley is a nice fellow.
The Secret Service got a copy on November 22nd around 10 p.m. Erwin was told a Navy jet was waiting at Hensley Field to take it to Washington. Erwin doesn't know how Life could have seen it on Saturday. Erwin never got a copy. Zapruder told him that Life asked for all copies. Erwin said okay. Erwin thinks he saw the film a total of 15 times.
Erwin remembers that JFK leaned toward Jackie after the first shot. And the camera didn't stay on him. “It kind of moved,” Erwin said. Jackie “kind of pushed him upright,” Erwin said, and she looked at him as if to be saying, “What's wrong?” Then his head snapped back, and half of it came off. “You didn't see the open skull, but you saw stuff flying everywhere.” Erwin said the debris went toward the back. JFK was turned toward Jackie. Erwin did not see any stopping of the motion of the car or the film. “I don't think it ever came to a stop,” he said.
This motion was seen by Erwin at the first viewing and during his subsequent viewings. “People have asked me, ‘did he go straight back like that?’” Erwin said. “No, he went that way. I mean, you know, because you could see his face after the shot,” Erwin answered.
[End of tape 1, side A]
Erwin did not know about Bobby Hargis getting hit with blood and debris. Erwin referred us to the 1993 BBC documentary in which he was interviewed for details about what the film shows.
Erwin did not analyze the film. Erwin saw the original film two or three times while at Kodak. After that they were looking at copies. The screen was half empty only during the afternoon. When they went back that night with the negatives, when they showed the film they watched a copy.
When they saw the film that evening, the film had been split [away from the blank side]. Jamieson made the negatives, the way Erwin understands it, and Kodak developed them. When they developed them they were on the full screen. They split it. It was grainier than the original each time they saw it. The original was as clear as a bell. There was nothing else different about it except that it was grainier. But they were not studying it to find out anything. They were just watching it. “If the limousine slowed, it wasn’t an appreciable slow-down to where you could say, ‘Yeah, he slowed that thing down,’” Erwin said. “He wasn’t going very fast when the shots rang out.”
Erwin cannot comment on witness claims that the limousine came to a stop because he wasn’t there. The car had not stopped in Erwin’s estimation. When Clint Hill caught up with it, the car was moving. Erwin did not see any indication in the film that the panning action of the camera stopped either. Erwin thinks Clint Hill’s actions were the most heroic thing he has seen. “He literally pushed her back into that seat. Dove on top of her. I mean, if anybody deserved a medal it’s that guy.”
At the first indication that JFK had been hit, Erwin could not tell where he got hit. There was no blood or anything. Erwin always saw the film at full speed. He never saw it slow. The debris flew off JFK’s head quick enough that Erwin described it as “a jerk.” When asked if he saw any debris go forward, Erwin said, “No. Not that I recall. It went backwards, left.” It looked like just one shot, “then you see her trying to get the hell out of there.”
There were just a few employees at Kodak who saw the film during the afternoon. When they came back later that evening the man they dealt with earlier asked if the shift could see it. Zapruder and Erwin asked the man at Kodak if anyone else had been in with any film and he said no. “I’m not sure about it but to the best of my knowledge, he said no,” Erwin said. When Phil Willis was mentioned as being there, Erwin said, “Who is Willis?” When told who he was, Erwin said, “He hadn't been out there that night. Not when I was there. He might have come after us. You know that place ran 24 hours a day.” When challenged on this point, Erwin said, “He could have been standing in the room watching it. I don't know.”
Erwin remembers getting some soup or chili out of a little can from a vending machine. It was the first time he had seen one that dispensed soup. “It was bad but we ate it. I don't know why we were standing. I don't recall why we were standing around waiting, but we were,” Erwin said. Nothing like that had ever happened to us before. Or anybody else either.”
Erwin said Zapruder could have driven around by himself after they separated to go home later that evening. “I mean I’m not disputing that at all,” Erwin said.
“He did stuff like that.” Erwin was with him up until the time he went home. When they were at the police station there was a lot of yelling and screaming and people standing on desks. Erwin said he was standing on a desk and didn’t know what he was looking at. Then they saw Oswald go by quickly. Then they saw Sorrels right after that. “And I went over to him and said, ‘Mr. Sorrels, we got the film you wanted,’” Erwin said.
And when the girl answered the phone I could hear Zapruder kind of waling in the background, ‘They killed him. They killed him.’ I said, ‘What the hell’s going on?’” All Erwin knew was that JFK was dead.
Erwin said that he was not at the Jennifer office when the police arrived with shotguns. He said, “When I called, that was right after Cronkite said the President was dead. Then I picked up the phone and I called down to the office. And when the girl answered the phone I could hear Zapruder kind of waling in the background, ‘They killed him. They killed him.’ I said, ‘What the hell’s going on?’” All Erwin knew was that JFK was dead. He didn’t know where it had happened or that anybody he knew was involved or had seen it. He didn’t know where it happened because they didn’t give out that information.
Erwin was at the North Park Inn, which no longer exists. It was at Northwest Highway and Central Expressway. “Having lunch. We were at a meeting. A bunch of us,” Erwin said. “And the waitress came by and said, ‘They shot the President.’ Well we jumped up, paid the check and we took off. And I went to a friend of mine’s house that lived on Del Norte, maybe a mile away from there. We got there real fast and we ran inside and we turned on the television. And that’s when we heard Cronkite say the President was dead. And that’s when I called downtown. I hear the screaming and the secretary said, ‘The police are here.’ I said, ‘What are the police doing—you know—what do the police want?’ And she says, ‘Well they want the film.’ I says, ‘What film?’ ‘Well Mr. Z...’—I didn't even know he’d taken a picture—and [she said], ‘Mr. Z’s got the pictures of it and they want the film and he don’t want them to have it.’ I said, ‘Where is the film?’ She said, ‘It's in the safe.’ I said, ‘Is the safe locked?’ She said no. I said lock it. She didn’t know the combination. He knew the combination. I knew the combination and one other secretary knew—not the girl that locked it.”
Erwin said he’d be right there and got in the car and drove down there and parked three blocks away in his regular parking place. He then ran down the street and was stopped at the corner of Record and Elm. Luckily the policeman who used to ride the beat on his three-wheeler, Joe Hartgreer[?-phonetic] was a friend of Erwin’s. Joe said, “He belongs here, let him in.” They stopped him again at the building and Joe told them again it was okay. “And that's when I got off the elevator [and] there were the two cops standing there with the shotguns,” Erwin said.
“I said, ‘What do you fellas want?’ He said, ‘They told us to come get the film.’ I said, ‘Who told you?’ ‘Somebody told us.’ I said, ‘I’ll find out about it.’ And I walked into Zapruder’s office and he was in there crying.” Zapruder told him what he saw. Erwin asked what the cops wanted. Zapruder said, “I'm not giving it to just anybody. I'll give it to—if somebody comes up in authority and wants it, I’ll be happy to turn it over to them.” Erwin understands that the cops asked for the film immediately but Zapruder didn’t give it to them. He wanted to give it to someone in authority. He wasn’t going to give it to those two patrolmen.
If the film came into the possession of his attorney, it was after Erwin was involved with it. Everything at the attorney’s office took place after Zapruder decided to give the money to the widow. It would have been after Wednesday or Thursday. They started getting mail by the bagful after he donated the money. Some letters called them stupid and others were requests for money from disable veterans. They read hundreds of them. They never gave out the address. They got thousands of letters addressed to “Abe Zapruder, Dallas, Texas.” Erwin couldn’t believe it.
Erwin was running the projector. They projected it onto the wall about 10 feet away. It was on a little rickety table. The projector was either Zapruder’s or Erwin’s.
Zapruder kept all copies of the film at his home overnight except the one they gave to the Secret Service. When Erwin got to the office at about a quarter to nine the next morning, Zapruder was already there. They were not looking at the film when Erwin arrived. Erwin said Stolley may have seen it when they started showing it but he would have had to wait until after everybody cleared out. He could have been in there when they started showing it, Erwin said. Erwin was running the projector. They projected it onto the wall about 10 feet away. It was on a little rickety table. The projector was either Zapruder’s or Erwin’s.
Erwin witnessed the original document with Dick Stolley. Erwin can’t say if Stolley saw the film before he (Erwin) got to the office. “I delivered him the film that he used for the stills for that Life magazine issue.” He is pretty sure he delivered it on Tuesday or Wednesday. Erwin brought it to Stolley at the Adolphus hotel. Erwin is sure that Life did not get the film on Saturday the 23rd. Erwin said he heard that every executive at Life had a copy of the film before it had been there an hour. They weren’t supposed to do that according to the agreement. Erwin never heard about anybody around Dallas getting copies. Erwin cannot swear that none were made at the processing labs, but they agreed not to. Erwin wasn’t in there with them during the processing and wouldn't have known what he was looking at even if he were. As far as Erwin knows, they didn't make any copies.
Kodak, the best Erwin can recall, said they couldn’t do the kind of work needed to make the negatives for making additional copies. Kodak told Forrest Sorrels, when they talked to him on the phone, that Jamieson did do that kind of work. Erwin doesn’t remember if Sorrels arranged for them to go to Jamieson or if Kodak arranged it. Erwin said somebody made the arrangements for them because neither he nor Zapruder had ever heard of Jamieson. They didn't know where it was. They were given the name and address. Erwin said he doesn't think Sorrels suggested it. He thinks it was Kodak who suggested it, but he doesn't know who made the arrangements for them to go.
They went back to the Jennifer factory before going to Jamieson. It was about 4 or 4:30 p.m. by the time they got there, but Erwin knows it was after dark before they left the factory. Only Erwin and Zapruder went to Jamieson. They parked the car and were walking up to the door of Jamieson in the dark when the guy from the Dallas Morning News came out of the shadows. Zapruder said he didn’t want stills from the film in the newspapers. At that point they didn’t have the camera, just the original film. When they walked in, Zapruder was talking to a guy who was objecting to signing a release. Erwin thinks the release was handwritten. When he started to sign it Zapruder insisted that an executive of the company sign it. Erwin doesn't think they would have rushed to have done it had the Secret Service not asked for a copy.
Erwin said Rothermel might have gotten a copy from Jamieson that night, but it would have been a bootleg copy. Erwin would not have known what they were doing even if he had watched them do the processing. Erwin and Zapruder were directed where to go.
Erwin does not know what happened to the three negatives. As far as he knows Zapruder could have had them. Erwin knows Zapruder walked out of Jamieson with a little package, a sack containing a stack of film canisters. Erwin said Rothermel couldn’t have gotten a copy of the film from Kodak because there was only the one original film prior to going to Jamieson that night. Erwin said Rothermel might have gotten a copy from Jamieson that night, but it would have been a bootleg copy. Erwin would not have known what they were doing even if he had watched them do the processing. Erwin and Zapruder were directed where to go. Jamieson was the only place considered but somebody made a phone call and Jamieson agreed to do it.
Erwin said the reason they went back to Kodak was to get them developed. They then brought Sorrels copy to him at the police station. Sorrels was not at Kodak the second time. They then took the one copy for Sorrels to his office at 500 North Ervay. Erwin still has the business card Sorrels gave him that day. Erwin saw Sorrels twice, he thinks on Saturday, and then one other time on Tuesday or Wednesday. After that Erwin never saw him again. Erwin was not around for everything that happened after that because he traveled a lot, but he did later help throw Mark Lane out of their office. Lane did not make a good impression on Zapruder. One writer who did make a good impression, whom Erwin met, was William Manchester. They talked to him for quite a while. Zapruder introduced Erwin to him. Despite all of the attention Zapruder and his film have gotten, Erwin said he would give anything if the assassination had not happened.
Erwin was not aware of the story about Eugene Hale Brading being arrested after coming out of their building after an elevator man in that building reported him to the police as a stranger acting suspiciously. Erwin said there was no elevator operator in their building, or a pay phone. When told that Brading had met with Ruby the night before, Erwin said, “I knew Jack Ruby a long time. He was kind of a wild man. He was a character. He was a hothead. You never knew when he was going to fly off the handle.” Erwin never suspected Ruby was connected with the Mob. “I didn't think the Mob would have him,” Erwin said.
When it was suggested that Ruby could have been connected to the “Jewish Mafia” like Meyer Lansky or Moe Dalitz, Erwin began talking about Dalitz, saying it is pronounced “Day-litz.” Erwin said Dalitz came from Cleveland and first surfaced at the Desert Inn in Las Vegas. Dalitz then sold the Desert Inn to Howard Hughes. “And then they went out and they built La Costa,” Erwin said.
We knew Frank Sinatra, Ruby Kolod, we knew all those guys that worked there. We used to go out there to gamble and we knew them all. Everybody knew them…
He added that it was originally called Wilbur Clark’s Desert Inn but the Cleveland Mob ran it “because we knew Frank Sinatra, Ruby Kolod, we knew all those guys that worked there. We used to go out there to gamble and we knew them all. Everybody knew them; I mean all the guys who went out from here—were on the junkets and everything—we all knew them. I didn’t know Dalitz.” Erwin said he knew Joe and Sam Campisi very well. “Played golf with them many times. Shot dice with them many times. Joe’s a good friend of mine.”
On the subject of Joe Campisi being Marcello’s man in Dallas, Erwin said only that Joe Campisi probably knew Carlos Marcello. But when the name Joe Civello was mentioned in the same context, Erwin said, “That was the man.” But Erwin quickly added that he wasn’t Marcello’s guy because Erwin thinks he went back a little before Marcello. “Back in the days when the guy that ran New Orleans was Frank Costello, Marcello was an underling to Costello,” Erwin said.
[End of tape 1, side B]
Erwin said he knew Joe and Sam Campisi, and he knew Jack Ruby. “I didn’t know him well, but I knew him,” Erwin said. “Joe and Sam—I still see their son. I see Joe’s son all the time.” On the subject of whether Ruby did favors for the Mob, Erwin said, “I don't think one of them was to shoot Oswald.” Erwin thinks Ruby did not want to put Jackie through a trial.
Erwin said that Ruby would hit you in the mouth with the slightest provocation. “I saw him several times in his nightclubs,” Erwin said, “and he was the bouncer.” Erwin said he was never in the Carousel. “He had a place called the Silver Spur,” Erwin said. Erwin believes the Carousel Club was farther down on Jackson Street rather than across from the Adolphus Hotel. “But don't quote me because I don't know for sure, Erwin said. “But I know it wasn’t right across the street. Abe’s Colony Club was right across the street, not the Carousel.” When told that the address was published by the Warren Commission, Erwin said, “Don't go by the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission—I don't think they did their homework.”
Erwin remembers that Zapruder was not happy with the way he was treated by the Warren Commission. “He thought they didn’t ask him the right questions,” Erwin said. “I read the transcript. You know, the original one that came out? I read it.” Erwin does not remember exactly what Zapruder objected to, but in general “They just kind of sluffed him off. They put a lot more stock in other people. He was the only one who really saw it—saw it through a telescoping lens,” Erwin said. “He was not happy with the way they treated him. I think the lawyer was rough on him, I don't know.”
Erwin said Zapruder never expressed any suspicion that the film had been tampered with. “You've got to understand,” Erwin said, “we were a little naive, you know. There was a lot of things could have happened that we didn’t— wouldn't have known about.
Erwin said Zapruder never expressed any suspicion that the film had been tampered with. “You've got to understand,” Erwin said, “we were a little naive, you know. There was a lot of things could have happened that we didn’t—wouldn't have known about. And you didn’t suspect. I mean no, it’s the government. It didn't get cynical until that Warren Commission business. He just really didn't like that. Somebody must have turned him off. I don't know who it was. I didn't see anybody and I didn't go with him. He went by himself. You know, I was in and out of town. I was gone all the time.”
Erwin said nobody from Garrison's office ever contacted him. Not even a phone call. “When I read that article in Playboy—of course we had heard about Garrison—but when I read that article it was, you know, much later. And when I read that—or somebody came to me and said, ‘Did you read that part about you and Zapruder?’ I said, ‘What part?’ Then they showed me the thing about the two men at the Dal-Tex, and we laughed.”
Erwin said it was about two o'clock in the afternoon when they left the building. “In those days,” Erwin said, “in th early Sixties, most of the manufacturing was done right in that neighborhood. All the factory lofts. All the soft goods. In our building, there were seven factories.” Erwin said their factory moved over to the Dal-Tex building in 1956. Erwin said the building was owned by a man named Dave Weisblat. He was the owner when they moved in, and a man named Robert Rose bought it from him. He said the building used to belong to the John Deer Plow Company.
Erwin said there couldn’t have been anyone shooting from the fire escape outside their factory because his employees were sitting there. Jennifer’s factory was on both floors four and five. Erwin said there may have been a pay phone on the first floor, but he doesn’t remember. He said the third floor was Miller Cupaioli’s factory. “We had a pay phone in our factory,” Erwin said, “for the employees to use.” Erwin said the third floor was either Miller Cupaioli or Mr. Eddie. He is not sure who was in the building at the time but thinks it was Miller Cupaioli. If Braden used a phone on the third floor, he would have to be in their factory to use it. “Ours sat right in the factory. You walked in from that elevator vestibule—you walked into the factory part, and there sat the phone right beside the time clock, which was on the wall too.” Erwin then asked, “Why would he go to the third floor? And there was no elevator operator. Trust me, no elevator operator. There was no elevator operator on the back elevator either.
“Even though there was a guy that—an old man—that ran that elevator sometimes during the day. In the back, not the front. The front elevator, no, there was no elevator operator. You couldn’t get in our factory coming in the back. We had a cage. You couldn't get in our offices either. There was a cage built.”
To get to the back elevator, Braden would have had to go through offices. “He'd have been in somebody’s company,” Erwin said. “There was no public telephone.”
When told that Braden knew Jack Ruby and was a founding member of the La Costa Country Club where Nixon and Fitzsimmons played golf with Tony Provenzano and Alan Dorfman, Erwin said, “They both had one thing in common. They both hated Robert Kennedy.” He added that “This is the first summer in nine years I didn't go [to La Costa].
[End of interview, tape 2, side A]
Published sources using the interview:
Harrison Livingstone, Killing Kennedy and the Hoax of the Century, New York, NY, Carroll & Graf Publishers, Inc., 1996, pp. 116, 117, 118-19, 120-21, 122-23, 172.
Noel Twyman, Bloody Treason: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy, Rancho Santa Fe, CA, Laurel Publishing, 1997, pp. 133-35, 138, 140, 147, 148.
Chris Scally, “TABULAR ZAPRUDER FILM CHRONOLOGY 2010” http://jfklancer.com/zapruder/Tabular_Zapruder%20Film_Chronology.html